Wed 12 Oct 2005
From the Libertarian Reform Caucus:
It’s Time to Win!
“We want to reform the platform so that Libertarian candidates can proudly quote our platform and still win elections.”
This seems to express the basic thesis of the reformers;The L.P. has “failed” because the message in the platform does not move voters to vote for L.P. candidates.
But this is a simplistic logic that conveniently bypasses both the unpleasantries and complexities of reality.
It begs a plethora of questions which it blythely ignores, but which must be faced and addressed before any meaningful changes can be validated.
Let’s touch on a few of them.
Suppose we impliment their proposed changes and we still don’t achieve their criteria for success? Then what? More “adjustments”to the message?
And just exactly what do they mean by “failure”?
It’s been suggested here that the recent history of the L.P. is one of success and not failure. But given that this is not a disagreement about the objective facts of what has transpired (i.e.,there is an nominal agreement about who ran for what office,and what result agrued,etc.)then it must a disagreement about the meaning of these objective facts, that is to say, what rational truths are to be formulated from the facts we more or less agree on?
To draw a “success” or “failure” conclusion, an objective standard must at the very least be clearly implied.On our side, I see frequent reference to the degree of difficulty in the current situation to getting the libertarian message accepted.This at least alludes to the objective degree of difficultly we are faced with.
On the reformer side,these same results are met with an arbitrary dissatisfaction that is a once vague and intense;We aren’t getting people elected often enough to high enough offices, therefore we MUST be doing something wrong.
This verily is the real and crucial failure on the reformer’s part: the failure to first establish an objective criteria upon which to base judgement before passing judgement.
If they would account for the degree of difficulty we face as Libertarians attempting to promote an ideology whose tenents have been so effectively propagandized against to the audience we address, perhaps,as I have suggested before, the mere survival of the L.P.would appear at least somewhat heroic.
Instead, they insist that as the message,as extant,has not produced whatever mimimum level of numerical “success” might meet with their acceptance, then the message must be changed.
Huh? I thought it was supposed to be about promoting the message.
Come to think of it, aren’t there already one or two political parties out there that are adept at adjusting their “message”so that people would vote for them?
I thought it was supposed to be about getting people to understand the unique value and meaning of the radical differences between Libertarianism on the one hand and varieties of statism they had been inculcated into believing to be their only range of choices on the other.
This can only be achieved by getting people to stop and do what made humanity a successful species, what they have been acclimated to not do, as least with regards the matters we address;THINK CLEARLY AND RATIONALLY,AND QUESTION THEIR ACCEPTED NOTIONS.
This cannot possibly be achieved by asking the reformer’s abjectly and shamelessly PANDERING question to the voters: what do I have to say to get your vote?
Sincere promoters of Libertarianism bring the message of a radical new way, and make no attempt to hide it, but rather dwell on why this new way is a better way.
Trying to advance without focusing on changing people’s perscpective is foolish, futile and hypocritical.
The reformer’s approach may possibly produce short term success at the ballot box.But that is an irrelavent speculation, as those would be uselessly pyrrhic “victories”.
No amount of sophisrty, salesmanship or obscuring of message can produce a desirable result if it does’nt lead a given person to change his mind, no matter what they do in the voting booth.
Without popular support, no reform has a chance; witness the fate of Bush’s social security “reform”.Electing “libertarian” candidates without promoting an acceptance of a comprehensive Libertarian agenda would produce the same futility, and might serve to undermine, rather than promote, libertarian philosophy.
Further, the reformers, without realizing it, it seems, having adopted electoral victory as an end in itself.In so doing, they have moved themselves another step towards conformity with their recently adopted Pragmatist philosophy; a perspective, as I have pointed out before,which can find no validity in Libertarianism.
—The Bikemessenger
October 12th, 2005 at 6:30 am
I am somewhat split between the two sides. I have read the platform and agree a few changes could be made but don’t think it should be thrown out all together.
On another issue I also don’t think that the LP should be nominating candidates who support the war on drugs, gun control, or anything that violates the constitution to “win” offices. We see the Democrats and Republicans change positions to win elections.
October 13th, 2005 at 3:27 am
Jake:
Thank you for your comment.I don’t mean to come across as dogmatic or inflexible, as I’m sure my follow purists at this site don’t.
I’m sure we would be open to suggestions as regards refinements to the platform.
I’m sure you don’t mean to imply that the reformers would promote drug war or gun control-advocating candidates, but are merely presenting a hypothetical example. I would’nt think of accusing them of that myself.At least , not at this point.
Be that as it may, I’m still deeply troubled by their fixation on electoral success.
That, combined with their adoption of Pragmatism, has ominous ramifications.
At this point, they may not be any more inclined to support drug war or gun control advocates than you or I.
But they are definitely off on a path that is relativistic,obscuring the requiste need of absolute, objective standards; down the road,the point of view they’ve taken could easily lead to support for such partys.
As they are in the process of eroding their own capacity to set objective standards,such support can no longer be catagorically rejected on principle. Thus, inevitably, the unthinkable of the here and now will be the doable of the future.
—Thank You,
The Bikemessenger
October 13th, 2005 at 7:35 am
No I don’t think for the most part anyway that pro drug war or pro gun control candidates are what they want to promote but my fear is that they will see a candidate who is somewhat Libertarian and jump to support him or her because they think he or she will win only to find out that the candidate was just like the major party candidates.
October 13th, 2005 at 10:49 am
“This can only be achieved by getting people to stop and do what made humanity a successful species, what they have been acclimated to not do, as least with regards the matters we address;THINK CLEARLY AND RATIONALLY,AND QUESTION THEIR ACCEPTED NOTIONS.”
There is one very critical ability that you missed here…the human species’ ability to adapt. You suggest that reformers do what? Accept the status quo?
I believe the reformers are pursuing two worthy goals 1. Promotion of liberty 2. Reduction of statism in gov’t.
I’d much rather see progress toward those goals vs the status quo. I fail to see how one could possibly think that progress could happen without getting people elected to office that are of a libertarian mindset.
You somehow think that the LP has real influence on the majority from its margins. It does not, and that is plainly evident. Tell me you believe the LP in its entire existence has in anyway reduced the growth of statism. I will then know you are just a deluded, obstinate whiner that has no real interest in pursuing the goals I have stated.
Stop bitching and start doing something to get yourself or someone else of a libertarian mindset into office.
October 13th, 2005 at 10:56 am
BTW…I think you’ve wrongly chosen the reformers as your enemies. If you really are libertarian (I’m really beginning to wonder) and seeking better gov’t, you’d be better off focusing your vitriol on the gov’t we have instead of the libertarians that are trying to change it.
October 14th, 2005 at 3:20 am
In response to:
Jake Porter October 13th, 2005 at 7:35 am
I see nothing wrong with supporting candidates who are only “somewhat libertarian”.
My problem is failure to adhere to principle,I would much rather support a candidate who stands on principles I disagree with, than one who would pay lip service to my principles in order to get my vote.
David Cobb, the Green Party candidate in last year’s presidential election said “We need more Libertarians in office!!”
Perhaps he understands that he is better served by “The Party of Principle” than professional liars who pander to the adherents of his views.
If you go to the afterdowningstreet.org site, you can find volumes of commentary by me encouraging the left-wing statists who’s views dominate there to abandon the Democracts and support the Greens, while making my own Libertarian views known,with my usual stridence and severity.
You may ask what is my rationale for this activity? Well, as I explain it to them, there are matters which transcend political views; matters of character and veracity.I challenge them, people who voted for Kerry almost without exception in the last presidential election:
If you had voted for Cobb instead of Kerry, they still would both have “lost”, but imagine the message that would have sent!(of course, anyone who appreciates the importancce of standing on principle understands that David Cobb did not lose, Left-wing statists lost by failing to provide him the support they owed him).
These harsh criticisms are generally taken in the intended constructive spirit and many have adopted my vow to never again vote for or support a D. or an R.
I would suggest that this would be a much better world with David Cobb in the White House rather than an amoral cowardly war criminal.
What would John Hospers say to that?
Of course, ideally, one would want an office holder who agrees ideologically, but a more fundamental matter, again is one of character and veracity.
—Thank You,
The Bikemessenger
P.S.–Reponses to other comments to follow, please bear with me.
October 17th, 2005 at 3:29 am
In Response To Eponym
October 13th, 2005 at 10:49 am & 10:56 am:
Thank You for your comments;Let me try to respond point by point.
I must concede I did not use the TERM adapt,however, my concerns about your adoption of Pragmatism certainly are a reference to an adaptive process,along the way to the ominous ramifications to which I allude.
But adaptation, of course, is a process; a series of changes and enviornmental responses, directly influencing succeeding changes.As applies to human behavior, the indivdual clearly has a unique capacity to direct his own adaptions.
However, they are still adaptions; not subject to abrupt rescind,but only to a continuation of an adaptive process.
Unlike other organisms that display a capacity to manipulate their enviornment on a complex level, man’s capacity is embodied in the INDIVIUAL,is of a higher order of sophistication and most pertinent to these issues, REQUIRES THE INDIVIDUAL TO LEARN and be FREE TO APPLY what he learns to his enviornment.Thus, we see just where the the foundations of a libertarian society lie,in the very nature of the creature we would posit there.
To grasp and accept these concepts requires some form of rationalist, absolutist philosophical base.A Pragmatist may grasp, but cannot accept the “restrictions” of Libertarianism.
This is what I find disturbing.It is not necessary to make value judgements between Pragmatism and Libertarianism to see that they are incompatable.Nor is it an apples-to-oranges impertinence;the former being a comprehensive philosophical system;the latter, a political ideology, by nature, narrower in scope and in need of abstract foundation.
Only some variation of statism can find a compatible fit rest upon a Pragmatist foundation.Libertarianism, an extraordinarily poor fit, must be sloughed off.
“You suggest that reformers do what? Accept the status quo?”
In what sense do you mean “accept”?
If you mean recognition of the objective reality, a reality not subject of human whim,or amenable to willful misperception, then yes, it behooves us all to “accept” the status quo.
But if you mean what I take you to imply,that having appreciated the grimness of the situation and the apparent improbability of success, that you should resignedly give up, or accept defeat, well certainly not!
Remember what anthropologist Margaret Mead said:”Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”
Also, don’t discount this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect
I certainly do not doubt the worthiness of your two goals, on the contrary, I focus my efforts primarily on establishment of firm philosophical foundation for them.
Of course, at some point,”…getting people elected to office that are of a libertarian mindset”is an essential element of progress.
But that is a very broad generalization that leaves a lot of room for valid debate.What constitutes a Libertarian mindset? Given the situation and resources at hand, what degree of progress may be reasonable to expect?
Moreover,what may appear as “progress toward…goals vs the status quo”could prove to be inappropriately partial solutions that backfire;I think caution is well advised to say the least. But as you might expect ,I prefer to say the most:
http://www.fff.org/freedom/1297a.asp
http://www.fff.org/freedom/0298a.asp
“You somehow think that the LP has real influence on the majority from its margins…”
I fail to see what I’ve written that brings you to that conclusion, rather, it is a matter that I don’t really focus on. I do not view the L.P.in isolation to the broader Libertarian movement but rather, as an essential aspect of it and in so being,it must remain consistent with it.
Like this:
http://www.smallgov.org/?p=91
Not like this:
http://www.lp.org/exitplan.pdf
If the Libertarian movement is to succeed, then those who would advance it must earn the respect of all they come in contact with; being a Libertarian has to mean something other than and more than being a statist, or a Republican or a Democrat. This can only be the case if we are consistently true to our ideals.
That does not mean that in the course a political campaign, that one should not choose one’s words wisely,nor even that some issues should not be deemphasized or avoided,but as Jake Porter Says:
(October 12th, 2005 at 6:30 am)…”I also don’t think that the LP should be nominating candidates who support the war on drugs, gun control, or anything that violates the constitution to “win” offices.”
I don’t think the L.P. has “reduced the growth Of statism.”I look around and I see statism expanding at an ever-increasing rate.It cannot do this without popular support;Ultimately, what ever role the L.P. may play in it’s demise, it’s popular support MUST be effectively subverted.
I see our position as roughly analagous to the Iraqi insurgency: putting our weapons aside and accepting whatever humble seat at the table of power is offered is futile in either case. Success can only consist of overturning the status quo, not modifing or accommodating it.
If we are to fail,then we owe it to ourselves, for our own peace of mind and edification, to have fought the good fight.But that begs the question: What is “the good fight”? Ironically, that which we each, in our own judgement,find to be the most effective means to the end.
Those of you amongst the reformers that suggest to us that we suspend our own judgement,mindlessly shut up and follow your direction on the basis of blind arbitrary faith should stop and wonder, being so dedicated to statist behavior, do you really want to live in a society where you have so little say in the behavior of your neighbors?
There are a lot of hard,intransient atheists out there, do you really want to let us run wild and free?
“Stop bitching and start doing something to get yourself or someone else of a libertarian mindset into office.”
But not all of us are suited to political acitvism. If “bitching” is what you’re good at(I get a LOT of grudging compliments), then why not refine it to a constructive purpose?
I sorry you’ve gotten the impression I’ve “chosen” you as my “enemies”I do not hold or express opinions for the purpose of conflict or controversy;nor do I shy from it.
Disagreeing with you honestly for me is insuffient basis for enmity, and I harbor none towards you.Adversary is about the harshest term I can offer instead.And as I’ve pointed out before, your adversaries are not necessarily your enemies, nor are your allies necessarily your friends.
I suppose it’s because, by my definition, at least,I have always been a Libertarian;I grew up in a household where extreme left-wing statist nonesense was the dominant subject of conversation. Before I could even fully grasp the meaning of what I was hearing, I began to intuitvely sense the discrepancies between what I heard,and what I introspected and observed of others.
Vitriol? I thought I was being a nice guy about it!Check me out in full red fang and claw here:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/3055#comment-22626
“If you really are libertarian (I’m really beginning to wonder).”
Really? Without a clear objective, criteria, explicitly stated, how do you expect your doubts to be taken seriously?
Are you basing that exclusively on my audacity in challenging you?
—The Bikemessenger
October 18th, 2005 at 4:46 pm
Yada yada yada…same ol’ BS. The party doesn’t win in elections and you think it should stick to a tired and self defeating game plan that will ensure its continued failure. Got something new to sell me and voters? Or maybe you have nothing better to do than type out the same tripe over and over again.
Like it or not, politics in this country is all about compromise. We don’t live in a dictatorship…yet. With guys like you bashing people that are trying to ensure we don’t, I think it is becoming a real possibility.
Give up on the uncompromising libertarian rhetoric…it isn’t convincing anyone to do anything differently.
Moving on…nothing worthwhile to see here.
October 18th, 2005 at 8:10 pm
There are now reports –well, complaints from zero dues advocates–that the Zero Dues proposal has been referred to the LNC Judicial Committee. I am not sure that these reports are correct. There are only two paths to a referal, namely signatures of a large fraction of the LPUS members, or signatures of a healthy number of LNC members, and I have seen no sign of either taking place.
The ‘reformers’ are complaining loudly. How sad.
The October FEC filing from the LNC is not yet up. We shall see how finances are doing, and whether other disputes matter.
October 18th, 2005 at 11:00 pm
The Texas LP State Committee claims it represents more than 5% of the membership, and has voted to ask the Judicial Committee to review the zero dues issue. The LP Bylaws
say that 5% of the party membership must ask for a review, but do not say how the sentiment of 5% is to be determined. For example, there is no signature requirement.
I gather that other states may be joining the request.
October 20th, 2005 at 5:11 pm
The result of the reformers is that the September period LNC FEC filings are now in place, and September was much worse than August, with under $85,000 in income.
October 30th, 2005 at 12:55 pm
Here is what I mean by failure: not winning races in partisan elections. This is an objectively measurable quantity. Duh!
“Educating the public” can be done by entities other than a political party. A non-partisan entity doesn’t have to deal with the FEC. Such an entity can even get 501(c)3 status.
A political party is a collection of people of similar mind who band together to win elections. By definition this involves compromise since you will not get a plurality of voters to agree completely with any ideology whatsoever. The purpose of a libertarian party is to get the 65- percentile of “libertarianness” population behind candidates who are more pro-freedom than what the D’s and R’s are offering.
This is objectivity. This is the nature of politics in the U.S. If you want to do fringe politics, move to a country that has a parliamentary system which rewards parties that can muster 5+% of the population at large.