Wed 7 Jun 2006
If there is more than one of them, why do we call them THIRD Partys? Why, for example, if the LP is a third party, are the Greens not a FOURTH Party? The Constitution Party a fifth, and so forth?
The designation, third party, is no mere arithmetic or numerical term. It is rather a qualitative labeling.
It’s about time we employed a little historical perspective in this great debate over the future course and organizational structure of the Libertarian Party.
In so doing, we will see just how bogus and futile the “reformers” arguments truly are.
Their agruments are entirely based on the ahistorical assumption that a “third” party is an institution of the same nature as the established partys, within the context of the American two-party system. But history shows this to not be the case.
This explains their unexamined premise, that the purpose of a third party is to win elections in the same manner as the established major partys, that it’s goals can only be achieved through a successful effort to supplant one of the major partys. It’s time to see how history overturns this premise.
While on the one hand,we see history clearly dispels this superficial, simplistic notion, to recognize this historic fact does not in any sense, as the reformers are so fond of implying, mandate the a given third party should not make geniune efforts to win elections, nor that such victories are in any way undesireable or inconsequential.
Much to the contrary. as Richard Winger has pointed out, there have been several cases in American history of third partys suppanting one of the established partys.
But in each such case, the successful third party advanced itself not by imitating the crassness of the established partys, but rather by repudiating it.
Of course, in a parlimentary system, there are multiple partys that compete on a more or less even basis with each other, although, as in Britian, there may still be a functional and traditional basis for dominance by two partys. But this is not the same situation as the American two-party system, with it’s winner-take-all, geographically based divisions.
In the parlimentary system, there is no intrinsic difference amoungst the various partys, except for their relative magnitude, a direct function of their popularity, but not an indication of inherent differences.
A critical distinction that must be made is between the two-party system that evolved and functioned reasonably effectively in the United States up until the latter twentieth century and the system into which we are currently and rapidly evolving. I consider it quite apt to refer to the former as the two-partys-only system.
I won’t bother to rehash the accelerating efforts to shut third partys out by the Republican/Democrat factions, but clearly, the intent is to reduce political discourse and options and consolidate power in the hands of the two factions. This is a distortion and denigration of the two party system. It serves to illustrate the essential role historically played by third partys and most importantly, illuminates the fundamental differences between the established partys on the one hand and third partys on the other.
With no other competitors, the loser on election day can afford to collude with the winner to shut other partys out, as it insures them no worse than second place. From an assured second place, with no other competitors, it’s never far to the top.
This looming problem must be addressed through educational efforts.
It is the nature of third partys in the American two party system to represent the concerns and aspirations of those who are dissatisfied with their voice and influence within the established partys. In order to do so, a third party must remain true to it’s convictions; it must show the electorate a consistent and sincere adherence to principle, electoral success notwithstanding.
It must gain respect through it’s consistency and verasity. It cannot, for example, oppose all foreign aid in it’s platform, publish and display articles supporting that position on it’s website, and then present a solution to a major public concern that includes the advocacy of foreign aid. The message to the prospective voter is unmistakable: HYPOCRACY.
Once a third party begins to focus it’s strategies on getting elected as it’s fundamental purpose, the voting public will see it for what it is; not a true third party, just a major party wannabee.
The reformers need to stop their panicky, cowardly, must-win-now at all cost approach and put what is happening in historical perspective.
There can be no gaurantee of success for the continuation of the LP along it’s historically consistent path of strict adherence to principle.
But the reformer’s strategy gaurantees failure, as it ignorantly repudiates the dictates of history for achieving success as a third party within the American two party system.
What so many more voices, of such wide range of perspectives are calling for today is a third party that will fulfill it’s proper historic function. Not just another competing faction to joust with the Rep/Dems for power on their terms. The interests of voters be damned, we have elections to win.
Or as Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi have told their partisans, forget impeachment, forget troop withdrawal from Iraq, just vote for us like good little sheep, at least you get to punish the Republicans.
It’s time for the reformers to grasp, that while the majority of voters may not have it clear in their minds, their unarticulated unease can only be addressed by a true third party, not a mere major party wannabee.
—The Bikemessenger
Addendum: see also:“3rd Parties: What They’re For and What They Do”
by Rick Gaber
22 Responses to “History Shoots Down The Reformers”
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
June 7th, 2006 at 11:43 am
Bikemessenger:
“[A third party] must gain respect through it’s consistency and verasity. It cannot, for example, oppose all foreign aid in it’s platform, publish and display articles supporting that position on it’s website, and then present a solution to a major public concern that includes the advocacy of foreign aid. The message to the prospective voter is unmistakable: HYPOCRACY.”
Big problem: The IES does not “advocate foreign aid” per se. It advocates a redirection, reduction and end to a particular piece of existing foreign aid — while the platform still states the end of ALL foreign aid as the ultimate goal. See here (near the bottom) for elaboration.
Here’s the “purist’s purist” on the subject:
Tom Knapp
June 7th, 2006 at 11:55 am
BikeM. - Agreed
As much as I’d like Electoral success. I do believe that my goal is the LP message beyond anything the Red & Blue say or do. This particular electoral message is also key. It can be employed by other ideologies/parties and used to explore a better democracy. There is room for reform in the stultified ways the LP carries out business.
June 8th, 2006 at 12:21 am
Thomas L. Knapp Says:
June 7th, 2006 at 11:43 am e
“Big problem: The IES does not “advocate foreign aid” per se. It advocates a redirection, reduction and end to a particular piece of existing foreign aid —”
Ask yourself, given that someone were to read at least one of the first two and the former, would they be more likely to interpret in the manner I suggest or yours?
I’d like to say you’re splitting hairs, Tom, but it’s more like you’ve mastered nanotech.
Except that it’s worse than that; the i.e.s. states, on page 5:
“…a direct-aid program WILL BEGIN for the Iraqi government.”
No mention of “redirection” no mention of “reduction”, nor is there any reference to any “existing foreign aid”. But even if it had, how would that not be advocating foreign aid?
It goes on to say:
“Even though the direct-aid program WILL be a substantial cost to American taxpayers, the United States is now obligated to make sure Iraq becomes stable, independent and functional country. Substantial progress has been made in rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure, but this does not satisfy the need for ADDITIONAL AID.”
(NOTE: on second reading, is’nt the bushian-level ignorance and arrogance in those two sentences more embarrassing than ever?)
I’d say you’ve got some tall explaining to do if you can find a way to interpret that as not initiating foreign aid. But why is opposition to foreign aid limited to refraining from initating new programs besides?
If foreign aid is wrong, say, per the Tanner article, then how does it get a free pass by merely being on-going?
I won’t even bother to go into the stipulations for the “dispersement” of funds; suffice to say they’re statist dirigisme-soaked drivel to the max.
Give it a rest, any defence of the i.e.s. at this point is a blatant act of necrophilia.
—The Bikemessenger
June 8th, 2006 at 7:45 am
>Tom Knapp: The IES does not “advocate foreign aid” per se. It advocates a redirection, reduction and end to a particular piece of existing foreign aid . . .
David Tomlin: I’ve gone over the text of IES carefully, more than once, and written some detailed analysis, in particular with regard to its discussion of foreign aid. From that standpoint I can only say your statement is blatantly false. I can’t even imagine what sentences in the text someone might claim could be interpreted in such a way.
June 8th, 2006 at 8:02 am
I shouldn’t have written the above without taking a look at the article Tom linked to.
Hasty reading - my bad - no excuses.
I don’t have time now, but when I do I will write a full response.
June 8th, 2006 at 9:13 am
It would seem that if the direct foreign aid proposed in the IES (money) was less than the direct foreign aid being spent now (money and military) than the IES would be moving in the right direction. Similiar to how advocating a sales tax cut is moving in the right direction even though you still are advocating sales taxes.
The problem as I see it is that it does not make this point clear, that the IES would reduce the taxpayer’s burden in Iraq.
June 8th, 2006 at 11:35 am
Jim,
You write:
“The problem as I see it is that it does not make this point clear, that the IES would reduce the taxpayer’s burden in Iraq.”
Well, that’s one problem with it. I can see others.
If I had written the IES, it wouldn’t have mentioned an “aid” package. It would have mentioned reparations for the illegal, immoral invasion, to be paid by the initiators/accessories to that illegal/immoral invasion. Bush and Cheney’s personal wealth to begin with, followed by the personal wealth of the congresscritters who gave them cover, then the assets of corporations which colluded with the administration so they could cash in.
Of course, I’m a purist. A “good” IES might not have been as radical as the one I’d have written.
But, a “good” IES would have been at least as radical as the “mainstream” of the constituency (Americans who want America out of Iraq) that the IES was theoretically aimed at.
By the time the IES came out, the “mainstream” of anti-war Americans weren’t thinking in terms of a one-year pullout and redistribution of troops to existing regional bases. They were already at “bring the troops home — NOW!” and had been for some time.
It’s just as easy for an LP near-term policy proposal to not be radical enough as it is it to be too radical. The real problem with the IES, in my opinion and in retrospect, is that it followed timidly instead of leading boldly.
Tom Knapp
June 8th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
>Tom Knapp: The real problem with the IES, in my opinion and in retrospect, is that it followed timidly instead of leading boldly.
David Tomlin: That was one of the points raised by the people you recently dismissed as ‘upset not with the proposal’s details, but with the fact that the LP had put forward a proposal which was in any way theoretically implementable’.
In July 2005 I wrote ‘The LP should be part of the anti-war movement, taking a firm stand for unconditional withdrawal as fast as militarily feasible. To do less is not a “compromise” but a unilateral concession, that relaxes the pressure on both the government and popular opinion.’
http://www.lp.org/yourturn/archives/000039.shtml#comments
Btw, you have yet to answer the question of whether you regard the very plan you helped to write as not ‘in any way theoretically implementable’.
Now, to this article.
http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2005/tle327-20050710-03.html
It was published by The Libertarian Enterprise (TLE), so henceforth I will refer to it as ‘the TLE article’.
When it was first published I read it, commented on it, and debated it with you.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TnLP/message/41232
(Registration required.)
As it happens, the points we discussed then aren’t directly pertinent to what is at issue now.
You cited this article in support of ‘The IES does not “advocate foreign aid” per se. It advocates a redirection, reduction and end to a particular piece of existing foreign aid . . .’
These two sentences resolve into four claims:
1. IES does not advocate foreign aid.
2. IES advocates ‘redirection [of] a particular piece of existing foreign aid’.
3. IES advocates ‘reduction [of] a particular piece of existing foreign aid’.
4. IES advocates an ‘end to a particular piece of existing foreign aid’.
I contend that all four of these claims are false.
In the TLE article, you stated your thesis clearly: ‘In the particulars of its policy proposals — as opposed to some of the rhetoric in which those proposals are couched — the Libertarian Party’s “Exit Strategy for Iraq” conforms in every respect to that party’s platform.’
The remainder of the article adheres to the stated restriction of its subject matter. It discusses the ‘policy proposals’ of IES, and ignores its ‘rhetoric’.
However, the statement at issue between us now is ‘The IES does not “advocate foreign aid” per se.’ There is no restriction to ‘policy proposals’. The claim is about the entire document that goes under the title ‘Iraq Exit Strategy’. That document certainly advocates foreign aid in the parts you dismissed as ‘rhetoric’, and which you explicitly excluded from discussion in the TLE article.
‘Even though the direct-aid program will be a substantial cost to American taxpayers, the United States is now obligated to make sure Iraq becomes a stable, independent, and functional country. . . . A direct aid program will give Iraq the best chance of becoming a stable, democratic, free-market-oriented country. . . . By creating a direct aid program for Iraq, we give them the necessary funds to become an advanced, industrialized, democratic nation.’
In the TLE article you tackled the matter of foreign aid with a brazen Humpty-Dumpty maneuver. You arbitrarily defined the funding of the U.S. troop presence in Iraq as part of ‘foreign aid’. I would say ‘nice try’, but I don’t really think it even rises to that level.
Even if the maneuver is accepted, that only gets you to ‘redirection’.
IES does not set any upper bound to the amount of ‘direct aid’ to be provided. No matter how you inflate your estimate of present aid, IES cannot truly be said to advocate ‘reduction’ from that or any other level.
Now for the last claim, that IES advocates an ‘end to a particular piece of existing foreign aid’.
IES says the ‘direct aid program’ will begin after U.S. troops begin to withdraw. It says nothing about when or if it will end. I’m confident of that because I’ve written a critique of IES that goes over the foreign aid discussion number by number, and almost line by line. If it were there I would have noticed.
The TLE article doesn’t address this except by unsupported assertion.
June 8th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
David,
You write:
“Btw, you have yet to answer the question of whether you regard the very plan you helped to write as not ‘in any way theoretically implementable’.”
Sorry, I thought I had answered that one.
Yes, Badnarik’s proposal was entirely implementable.
I’m not sure what that has to do with anything, though. Are holding this out as if it constitutes the LP making, and then backing away from, a proposal? Badnarik’s proposal was not proposed by the LP, it was proposed by Badnarik. It was no more the LP’s proposal than blowing up the UN building or tying prisoners to their beds for a month were.
As to the distinction between the policy proposals and the surrounding rhetoric, no question: You got me. I initially separated the two for a specific purpose, and ever since have, for all intents and purposes, forgotten that anything but the policy proposals existed.
The more I revisit the IES, the more I regret the fact that it was released and that I defended it. Even at the extreme, however, I ascribe the problems with it to error, not intent.
Regards,
Tom Knapp
June 9th, 2006 at 3:43 am
Thomas L. Knapp Says:
June 8th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
“Even at the extreme, however, I ascribe the problems with it to error, not intent.”
Tom: Everything you said until this was quite agreeable. Why do you want to let the i.e.s. authors off the hook like that?
“Safeguards will be put in place to ensure U.,S. aid is spent efficiently and effectively.” (i.e.s., p.5, “Direct-Aid Program, paragraph 2)
I just picked that sentence out almost at random to illustrate a point about the i.e.s. that I’ve been making almost from the beginning. I’m still waiting for someone to contradict me on this. That is, by the way, a statement of fact, not an effort at baiting.
Reading between the lines, so to speak, the perspective implicitly expressed by the wording of the i.e.s. is disturbingly non-libertarian.
I’m not sure what sort of error you have in mind, but unless you mean the error of assigning the task of writing the i.e.s. to non-libertarians, I would have to take exception to your assertion.
Even if we can postulate an innocent error as the basis for all this discussion, why then no expression of regret or admission of mistake?
On the contrary, lets not forget that the position on these objections to the i.e.s. of Shame Cory and his Republican-lite, as our esteemed adm. so aptly tags them, cabal to this day still amounts to nothing more than or other than how dare we fail in our obligation to provide him with unthinking blind support.
After all, what kind of libertarians go around thinking for themselves with good old Shame to take care of that for us?
Even gwbush has admitted his “bring it on” remark was out of line. Shame, on the other hand, continues his de facto assertion of Papal infallability.
Frankly, though, I see the i.e.s. as a bone so old it’s a gratuitous act of paleontology to dwell on it.
I’d like to ask you all to focus, if you would, on what I consider the most significant point of my article; that being my contention that, within the parameters of the historic two-party system, a third party has both a distinct role to perform and consequently, a distinct nature which obviates and throughly discredits the reformer’s agenda.
What do you say?????
—the Bikemessenger
June 9th, 2006 at 6:45 am
Bikemessenger,
You write:
“I’m not sure what sort of error you have in mind, but unless you mean the error of assigning the task of writing the i.e.s. to non-libertarians, I would have to take exception to your assertion.”
Since I don’t know offhand who wrote the IES, I can’t say with any certainty whether the authors were “non-libertarians” (there’s also the problem of defining what that means — we may not even be on the same page there).
The error I have in mind is alluded to in the reverse of the Rothbard quote above. Incremental propositions are okay, “provided that the ultimate goal of victory is always kept in mind and held aloft.”
I’m even fairly a softie on that insofar as I don’t believe that every time a Libertarian mentions a tax cut, he also has to throw in “until we can eliminate that tax, and every other tax, too” (the platform is perpetual, and covers that).
There’s a line, however, beyond which a proposal ceases to ring as an incremental improvement with the ultimate goal kept in mind, and starts to ring as mere pandering.
I’ve already submitted my mea culpa as misidentifying the IES as the former when it now seems to me to be the latter. I am still, however, willing to believe, that the authors of the IES lost sight of ultimate goals rather than purposely closing their eyes to those goals.
As far as your point on third parties goes, I’m still thinking on that, as it contradicts long-held ideas of my own.
Regards,
Tom Knapp
June 9th, 2006 at 7:46 am
Forgive me for posting off-topic, but I haven’t been able to find anywhere else to post this either on this blog or on the other major blogs. No one appears to be taking any notice of it.
On May 18, 2006 the FDA approved a prescription drug called Cesamet which contains synthetic TNC for treating nausea and vomiting due to chemotherapy.
Now call me quirky, but I would have thought that the LP or one of the top bloggers would have had at least SOMETHING to say about this. Google News has reported coverage by 230 different publications. Here’s the one article on the subject: http://www.webmd.com/content/article/122/114698.htm
Didn’t anyone notice?
I wrote to Shane Cory yesterday, asking why the LP hasn’t even commented on it. I have heard nothing back as yet.
June 9th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
Tom Knapp: Yes, Badnarik’s proposal was entirely implementable.
I’m not sure what that has to do with anything, though. Are holding this out as if it constitutes the LP making, and then backing away from, a proposal?
David Tomlin: Of course not. One might as well say the LP had to become an anti-abortion party because it once nominated Ron Paul.
To understand my point, I suggest looking at what I was responding to. That was your characterization of IES critics as ‘upset not with the proposal’s details, but with the fact that the LP had put forward a proposal which was in any way theoretically implementable’.
I think most IES critics would have accepted something along the lines of the Badnarik plan.
June 11th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
Good info that leaves out some additional supporting evidence such as the fact that the “two” parties are really just factions of one. Bought and paid for by the same interest.
Reformers don’t want to admit that, and they’re probably too dumb to understand anyway, being former GOPers.
There is also the electoral hurdles/system as you mention. Duvergers(sp) law. and on and on.
These conservatives are too stupid to understand that condemning your own professed philosophy discredits your solutions in the eyes of the voter. Witness Bill Weld. It was obvious what he was doing there, but all the taint lickers could do was apologize when he said that he didn’t agree with libertarians on, well… anything. This is discredits what we stand for, absolutely or incrementally.
They only get mad because they didn’t know he is an eminent domain aficionado. Like the people who are mad about Iraq because it turned out to not be a cakewalk, any idiot could have been able to tell that there were no WMD and it would be a debacle. This one did.
Going back to incrementalism, that’s fine with me as long as it is genuine incrementalism. Reformer incrementalism includes new and expanded AIDS programs, gun control for New York, “Fair” taxes and vouchers. I fail to understand how any of those things are going to improve the world at all.
The thing we need to remember about these reformers is that they are disaffected Republicans. That means that they mostly have the idiot Republican mentality. Hell, they USED to be Republicans and they must have had some reason for being there. That tells us all we need to know. Once you understand the repugnant conservative mind, all becomes clear to point of near clairvoyance. It isn’t hard to anticipate the future actions of an earthworm. Or a conservative.
June 11th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Devious David Says:
June 11th, 2006 at 2:11 pm e
“Good info that leaves out some additional supporting evidence such as the fact that the “two” parties are really just factions of one.”
Actually, I left it out deliberately, regular readers probably sick of me making that point.
I do use it to advantage elsewhere:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/11672#comment-58213
It’s hard not to empathize with and enjoy your eloquent rant. But to put it more soberly and concisely, all the people to whom you allude certainly are lacking in mental clarity.
How many of them, given that one takes them at their word, can explain exactly how libertarianism differs qualitatively from any or all of the statist ideologies?
Some of them, of course, we know for sure cannot be taken at their word:
http://www.smallgov.org/?p=226
Come to think of it, with a sobriquet like THAT surely you don’t expect us to trust YOU, do you. Ha Ha…
Jacob Hornberger wrote an excellent six part series on the very issue of incrementalism, it’s dangers and relation to dedication to principle. It begins here:
http://www.fff.org/freedom/0997a.asp
—The Bikemessenger
June 11th, 2006 at 11:34 pm
Libertarian TV Says:
June 9th, 2006 at 7:46 am e
“Forgive me for posting off-topic…”
Personally, I have no problem with the occasional off-topic commentary.
They do get a little excessive at ADS where I post a lot of commentary, but I can’t imagine it would get out of hand here. There they seem to have a policy of never blocking anything. I’ll just leave the policing to adm.
Now, to address your issue. Maybe we shouldn’t be discussing it. At least not until it’s been implimented and has been on-going for a while.
Why? If it became widely known, it could serve as a political football for the right-wingers in congress trying to win reelection; it could afford them an opportunity to show their ignorant, small-minded constituency that they’re “tough on drugs”.
To my recollection, none of us has ever done an article on the war on drugs at this blog.
I’d suggest letting sleeping dogs lie; let this new drug slip surreptitiously into the status quo, let the November elections pass, then focus on it.
Hopefully, Shame won’t find a way to make political hay out of it that works against those in need of the drug.
—The Bikemessenger
June 14th, 2006 at 12:41 am
[…] P.S. for more, see also “History Shoots Down The Reformers” […]
July 12th, 2006 at 4:36 am
[…] NONE of you EVER address the issues of the historical purpose of third parties, and their consequent distinct nature as contrast major partys: […]
December 31st, 2007 at 4:31 am
[…] History Shoots Down The Reformers […]
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:20 am
The customers trust our
resume service cause they are the most responsible! Our company performs resume writing service to conform the precise range of science you wish.
April 20th, 2010 at 10:21 pm
They do get a little excessive at ADS where I post a lot of commentary, but I can’t imagine it would get out of hand here. There they seem to have a policy of never blocking anything. I’ll just leave the policing to adm.
May 29th, 2010 at 12:50 am
You`ll just leave the policing to adm?!